Podcircle Podcast

Kyle Cummings: 00:00

Welcome to the Podcircle podcast where we bring practical tips and insights for every podcaster.

Mickenzie Vought: 00:05

From aspiring podcasters to experts with hundreds of episodes under your belt and everywhere in between, these conversations dive into all the topics that matter most to you. Today, we are diving into podcast metrics to help you measure success. So in our last episode, we talked about setting realistic expectations for yourself, And we want to come in here and continue to pull back the curtain a little bit on this topic because I think sometimes we can get caught up on those vanity numbers, number of downloads, and that feels really big. And this is the listenership I have. And so we want to bring it down for you today and talk about what is winning for you and your podcast. So we've got a few metrics to help you quantify your goals and measure success.

Kyle Cummings: 00:47

Yep. And the very first one I'll I'll kick right over to you is number of episodes.

Mickenzie Vought: 00:52

So if we've said it once, we've said it 1,000 times on this podcast, consistency matters. So the number of episodes is showing that you are consistently showing up. You're building, loyalty, you're building repertoire, you're building repetition with your listeners and saying, we are going to be here when we say we're going to be here. And I think this is a metric that we kind of undervalue. And so I want to be your cheerleader as always and encourage you to celebrate when you hit those milestones.

Mickenzie Vought: 01:20

Hey. I've got consistently I've hit 10 episodes. I haven't missed a week. Hey, I've done 10 episodes and I threw in a bonus that was relevant to my topic because it was had a seasonality. Let's say you have a podcast, around hosting and so you do a special bonus episode around the holiday season.

Mickenzie Vought: 01:37

Like, there are ways that you can start to throw that in, but how can we measure consistency in and the number of episodes and continue to celebrate that? That's a metric that matters, I think.

Kyle Cummings: 01:45

That's really good. The next one is average listen time. So knowing who your listener is, are you a long form podcast or are you a 20 to 30 minute podcast, which most, I would say most are? The average commute time in the US is around 22 minutes, 25 minutes. I like to encourage people that are starting out with a podcast or kind of trying to figure out, like, who that that ideal listener is to start with a a bit of a shorter podcast.

Kyle Cummings: 02:12

So Yeah. And then as they grow and they gain listeners, more times than not, they're gonna ask for either more frequent podcasts or just longer episodes. And so take that feedback and run with that. But to start, I tell folks, like, 20 to 30 minutes is what most people can chew off because you can see the rates, like, in podcast analytics, they tend to drop off Yeah. After that.

Kyle Cummings: 02:36

So, you know, oftentimes folks aren't even finishing an episode. A little bonus tip on that is to if you're running ads, place them in the first 15 minutes, at least that first ad.

Mickenzie Vought: 02:46

That's good.

Kyle Cummings: 02:47

Make sure it's in the first 15 minutes because you're gonna get the most amount of listeners there. So one thing that we do in our strategy sessions with new podcast clients is that we help them assess what is your target episode length. What is that time? Is it a 30 minute episode? Is it a 15 minute episode?

Kyle Cummings: 03:05

That's something we help folks do all the time is is pretty important to nail down.

Mickenzie Vought: 03:08

And it's pretty hard. I think, it is a art and a practice to keep your podcast short if you're aiming for sure. I know that that's a challenge that we have. We're both talkers. And so to be succinct and to make every word count, is really important to keep your listener engaged.

Mickenzie Vought: 03:25

I think a metric that I track on a consistent basis is top episodes. So I think if you're thinking in broad terms, if you have a guest specific show, you might think, hey, my best episodes are gonna be those with my big get guests. Right? And they have the biggest reach, and so they're gonna put it to the listeners, and it'll be the best one. But I have found that that can be true.

Mickenzie Vought: 03:43

But what is also true is that my best episodes are the ones that are hitting a felt need for my client, and for my listener. And so if they're searching their feet and trying to pick an episode, the one that's gonna hit and serve them are often gonna be the ones that's gonna be the top episode. So if you're tracking those and saying, Hey, every time we talk about X topic, we get a ton of listeners talk more about that. What are the more nuances that you can do around that? And it really helps you assess and plan for future episodes and it helps overcome that creative fatigue that we've talked about before in the past.

Kyle Cummings: 04:14

Absolutely. And don't be afraid to do a best of, you know, maybe at the end of the year, you wanna take some time off around the holidays because you can in your podcast host platform, you can, you can see those top performing episodes. So the next point on this is weekly downloads. There's a big misconception between okay. What is a specific episode getting Yep.

Kyle Cummings: 04:35

Like, from last week versus what are the weekly download numbers overall? Because remember, people are going back and they're consuming your old content. Maybe they're just not caught up yet. Maybe they're a new subscriber, and they wanna go listen to binge listen to a bunch of past episodes. And so I'll use the podcast that Mackenzie, another podcast that she hosts and produces as a perfect example.

Kyle Cummings: 05:00

I was pulling some numbers for them this past weekend, and their average download numbers are really nice at around 4,000 downloads. But, you know, a more recent episode is around 2,000. Everyone hasn't consumed that yet. So as a whole, each episode on average is getting about 4,000. And I think that's really important to know that, and I think that's something to be encouraged by.

Kyle Cummings: 05:25

Because when I when I present that to a lot of podcasters on calls, that we work with, they're really surprised. Like, wow, these are actually much better than we thought they were. And it's because the more recent episodes just haven't accrued those numbers yet that the old ones have. So check-in on those from time to time if you if you do your own podcast and run those numbers. And and my guess is that you'll it'll be an encouragement to you.

Mickenzie Vought: 05:48

Definitely. And I think it just speaks to your quality of your listener. Are you creating a show and do you have listeners who want to go back and consume all of your content? If you're seeing those numbers, those weekly numbers be a lot higher than your individual episodes that's speaking to that you've got a quality show and people aren't just consuming the first one. They want to go back and learn more from you.

Mickenzie Vought: 06:06

You're getting more people and they want to learn more from you. So that's awesome.

Kyle Cummings: 06:08

Yep. And you made a point in the last episode I want to bring in here.

Mickenzie Vought: 06:11

Mhmm.

Kyle Cummings: 06:12

A great way to have evergreen content is to create evergreen content. You know? Just jot down like, oh, this would be a great topic that's really evergreen that we could record any time. You know, you can recycle that content, you know, as a rerun later. It's just always it's always evergreen.

Kyle Cummings: 06:28

So let's talk a little bit about reviews and ratings, Mickenzie.

Mickenzie Vought: 06:31

Yeah. So when you have reviews and rankings, you're gonna do better from discoverability standpoint and from a credibility standpoint. So the, platforms that host them, Apple, Spotify, when you've got those reviews and you've got ratings, they're gonna push you higher. And so I think that's something to pay attention to. What is your overall rating?

Mickenzie Vought: 06:48

Is it a 4? Is it a 5? Is it a 4.8? Is it a 3? Like it'll help you figure out how you need to better and improve your show.

Mickenzie Vought: 06:56

And it'll also show you, am I creating credibility with my listeners that they're willing to go and take action? So how do you get reviews and ratings, Kyle? You go out and you ask for them.

Kyle Cummings: 07:06

You ask.

Mickenzie Vought: 07:07

You shouldn't feel icky. We've talked about this, like, self promotions only icky if you're not serving your audience. So find creative ways to ask them to rate and review, help them feel like they are a part of creating success for your show and helping more people discover it. It's all on how you frame it. You can say, hey, we want everyone to listen to this.

Mickenzie Vought: 07:25

So it would really help us if you would like, rate, and subscribe, all of those things. So we're saying this. We want more people to learn how to have better podcasts, to do it sustainably. So why don't you go and give us a rating? Why don't you go and subscribe, and leave us a review?

Kyle Cummings: 07:42

Absolutely.

Mickenzie Vought: 07:43

And make sure you tell them how to do it. So, for example, on Apple, you have to open up your podcast app. You have to go to the actual show, and then you have to click rating. They kinda, like, hide it. And so on that one, you have to scroll all the way down.

Mickenzie Vought: 07:57

Right?

Kyle Cummings: 07:57

To the bottom. Yep. And then that's where you can do it. I think that's the thing that's that can be tricky for people. It's like, okay.

Kyle Cummings: 08:02

Yeah. Everyone's soliciting my rating and my review, but I go on Apple Podcasts app, and I I can't find where to do it. So if you just go to the show and scroll down, there's 5 stars there. You can leave a rating, and you can drop a review right under it. It's a little bit easier in Spotify.

Kyle Cummings: 08:17

I think it's just right there at the top of the show where you can leave, leave a rating right there. So as a tip for you all, give us some helpful best practices on how to even rate and review your show show because I got some feedback from a client one time that says, hey. I'm asking people to rate and review all the time, and then people were like, oh, I can't figure out how to do it.

Mickenzie Vought: 08:34

Know your listener.

Kyle Cummings: 08:35

Yeah. Know your listener.

Mickenzie Vought: 08:36

Asking people to do something, I think, is also a way that you can know whether or not your podcast is landing. And I think that's a metric you should track. So let's talk about website referrals or links or what's another metric that maybe you don't think of as a podcast metric I should be tracking when it comes to links you're putting in your show notes. I think it really does help you assess if your podcast is a lead source to other products and services.

Mickenzie Vought: 08:59

So you can create trackable links in Google. This is my marketing tip for you for the day. You can go and create trackable links in Google, and then it'll add kinda at the end of your link. It makes it a little bit longer, and you can see where is that traffic coming from. So if you have Google Analytics, you can see, oh, this was a podcast link and they clicked on my email list, or they clicked on this free offering I have, or they clicked on my store and got to it here.

Mickenzie Vought: 09:24

You can see they're called referral links. Where is it referring to? Yeah. And I think that's showing that you have a show that's pushing people outside of the ecosystem of just podcast into other products. They're willing to take that next step with you.

Mickenzie Vought: 09:38

In marketing, we always joke, don't ask someone to marry you on the 1st date. So a podcast is just a date. We're just talking. We're just dating. And maybe I wanna take it to the next step and say, let's go on a weekend away together. Like, that's that's going to my email list.

Kyle Cummings: 09:52

Exactly. And I'll speak to the email list a little bit. If you have one, a podcast is a great way to grow that email list. So put a call to action at least at the end of the podcast to say, hey. If you wanna join our email list, we give, you know, whatever that is.

Kyle Cummings: 10:05

Create a clever name for it. Here's we provide, you know, 3 tips every week on how to do x, y, and z. Obviously, that's probably gonna be part of your expertise in whatever it is that you do. But create that call to action there. Make it really easy for them to, to sign up for that because email marketing is is still the thing.

Mickenzie Vought: 10:24

I always say it's the only list that you actually own because you're using other platforms, and you don't own your social followers. You don't even own your podcast listeners, but you own your email list. So

Kyle Cummings: 10:35

You do.

Mickenzie Vought: 10:36

Yeah. What's your newsletter called, Kyle?

Kyle Cummings: 10:37

It's called podcast pro tips. We we do it a few times a month. We put together the most helpful and relevant podcast tips, whether it's, you know, about gear or just things that are happening in the podcast industry, best practices. And, we send that out a couple times a month.

Mickenzie Vought: 10:54

Alright. So that was a shameless plug for his, list. You can join it in the show notes. Alright. So the last metric that we do want you to pay attention to is downloads.

Mickenzie Vought: 11:02

I know at the front end, I said the vanity download number, but it is important. It's not the most important, but it's still important. It's reminding you and showing you how many people have subscribed. A download number basically just goes to your like, the number of feeds that it's going into. And so your download number is going to be different than your listener number.

Mickenzie Vought: 11:22

And I think that can be a little alarming to people of like, but I've got this download and someone downloaded it, but they didn't listen to it. And how are those numbers different? The numbers are different because it automatically goes to their feed because they've subscribed. They're a follower. Whatever that language is that the, the host is using that week.

Mickenzie Vought: 11:37

I feel like Apple has changed it a couple of times on me. Mhmm. But the number of people that actually then went in and listened for a little bit of time. So don't be alarmed because those are different numbers. But it's still important that you're getting in front of people and it's still getting delivered to them every week.

Mickenzie Vought: 11:50

And so it's a number that you can fall back on and know and kinda have as, a barometer of is this continue to be successful? Am I continuing to add to the number of people who are subscribing?

Kyle Cummings: 12:01

Podcast subscriber numbers Mhmm. Are notoriously difficult for podcast host platforms to track. And I don't I think that there's a big misconception about that. Like, we use Transistor, and they even say as, like, a little, like, a little blurb in there. These numbers are really, really hard to track for x, y, and z reasons.

Kyle Cummings: 12:21

So oftentimes, you you'll see that your download numbers per episode are a good bit higher than your subscriber numbers. It's those subscriber numbers are a podcast host's best guess, best estimation based on a number of different factors that they pull together to produce that subscriber number. So I think that's really important for you to know because if that number just seems lower, there's probably a reason for that because it's not really exact. So

Mickenzie Vought: 12:46

Right. I'm listening to shows I don't subscribe to all the time. I mean, I'm sure that you are as well. I'm like, I don't know that I'm really ready to get this every week, but I'll give it a try. So Yeah. For that fact.

Kyle Cummings: 12:56

Totally. I think that's totally normal. It's like it's the whole dating thing. Like, we're just we're just dating. Like, we're not ready to hit that subscribe button yet. So Yeah.

Mickenzie Vought: 13:03

Alright. Well, we want you to be successful, and these metrics are gonna help you just stay on top of how am I doing. It's gonna help you define what success is to you, but that's my biggest encouragement. Set realistic expectations for yourself and measure success for what is success for you, not success for the biggest podcast number you hear out there.

Kyle Cummings: 13:21

Totally.

Mickenzie Vought: 13:22

I think we just so often do that. Right? We just start to compare. But are you being successful for the goals that you set out for your podcast?

Kyle Cummings: 13:30

Exactly. And it's quality of listeners over quantity of listeners every time, every time a quality listener who is engaged in your show, that's clicking your outbound links. That's following you on social media. That's signing up to your email newsletter. I would take a 100 of those over a 1000 listeners that are just that are not engaged in in Yeah.

Kyle Cummings: 13:53

You know, if you're not converting them into customers, then you're just producing podcasts as a as a hobby. And and if that's okay for you and if that's your goal, have at it. Do it.

Mickenzie Vought: 14:04

And you've been successful in your goal?

Kyle Cummings: 14:06

Exactly. It's all about those goals that we talk about in our strategy sessions when we launch, help customers launch new podcasts. Mackenzie and I do those strategy sessions. So a quick plug for our podcast starter kit. If you are a new podcaster or you're just your podcast curious, as I say sometimes, you're just kinda thinking about getting it getting into it, download our podcast starter kit.

Kyle Cummings: 14:28

It's a handful of PDFs. It's I mean, we compiled so much information in there. Resources. Yeah. And you can find that at podcircle.com/start.

Kyle Cummings: 14:38

We also I just mentioned here a minute ago about strategy sessions that Mackenzie and I do. This is for new podcasters. This is for podcasters that have been in the game for a long time, and that they felt like they may maybe have hit a wall, maybe their download numbers have stagnated. We can get on a call. It's an hour or 2 depending on which package and help ask just some big questions to suss out.

Kyle Cummings: 15:01

Okay. Here's what's worked in the past. Maybe here's a good way forward. Maybe here are a few guests. Things like that are really, really helpful for people. So, we'll drop a link for that in the show notes as well. So anything else before we wrap up, Mickenzie?

Mickenzie Vought: 15:16

No. I think you hit it all. We, want you to be successful. And if you're feeling stagnant or these numbers aren't reflecting how you want, we'd love to help you figure that out.

Kyle Cummings: 15:24

Awesome. Well, we hope you guys have a good week. And as always, we'll talk to you next week.

Mickenzie Vought: 15:28

See you next week.